Let\'s Talk About Sex
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| #31 Posted 4 months ago | Reply |
See, the way you're talking you make it sound as though marriage is just a part of life. What you're suggesting, it seems, is that at some point in everyone's life a love happens, and as a result two people marry and spend the rest of their lives in a loving relationship, etc., etc.
Now, call me Mr. Nontraditionalist if you like, but I don't happen to share your world view. As I see it, love is sporadic and unforseeable. It's not something you can create, it's not something you can summon, and it's not something you can assign to a certain time period in your life.
Oh no, not everyone has to get married, but most people do anyway, whether you share a world view of marriage or not. I'm Catholic so I know that you can be a priest and just live a single life and that's also acceptable. It's just that, as I said, most people in this world get married, even though it's not a necessity. It's only necessary that we reproduce and raise our offspring properly, and it's a good idea to have your wife/husband with you in order to do it best. You can be a single parent and have the child turn out OK, but it's a lot harder.
I agree with your second paragraph too; love is the trust and responsibility bound to another person. You don't just love your husband and wife, you love other people too. And love doesn't just "happen" either, and I wouldn't call the bond between other people, "creating" or "summoning" love, but rather learning how to practice it. It's not like you meet a special person, convince yourself you love them, and then life goes on with flowers and butterflies and everything's perfect. That, what I just mentioned, is the world view of love, and that's not the belief I hold. You meet people, you talk to them, and you become their friend. We are born and raised to love, it's something we learn, not magically summon out of the depths of our heart when the time is right.
That is not to say that I don't believe I'll ever marry someone, but I don't expect to be married. In fact, the only time I would ever even possibly consider something akin to marriage would be after I've met someone I'd actually want to marry. Because that's the only time you can actually make such a judgement, right?
Smart move. Some people are just desperate and rush into things, and that's why there's so much divorce and why there are so many live-together partners who months later are on Judge Judy. Seriously.
What it seems is that anticipating marriage to the extent that you'll actually plan your sex life around it is kind of like making a reservation at a restaurant for yourself and someone who you've never actually met. It's a plan for something that you really have no way of anticipating, yet which you're going to use to plan your entire lifestyle.
The thing about your example is that by the time you're married, you (theoretically) already love and trust the person, so it's not quite like that. Now if the person is single and says, "I'm going to wait for marriage for sex," I think your example could work with that. I think the decision to save sex for marriage goes for while you're currently in a relationship and you decide that you're not going to have sex with your boy/girlfriend until you're married to him/her. And if you guys break up, it'll be much easier to move on because you never physically attached yourself to that person. Sex glues you to the other person and you end up regretting having sex with the person to begin with.
Perhaps this "no sex until mariage" concept held some water back when marriages were, you know, arranged, but in the world of today it's a shaky investment to say the least.
 ?? How is it shaky? And how is it not shaky to have sex before marriage?
What I don't understand is that you're saying that people shouldn't save sex for marriage, right? But what's wrong with that? What's honestly wrong with being patient about the most intimate thing a couple can do with one another? You have yet to stay how and why it's impractical and shaky, yet JesusRocks in his latest post described how it's practical quite beautifully. I know you said that marriage is a legal thing, sex and marriage aren't related, etc, but what does that have to do with impracticality?
The only argument I've heard towards the necessity of having sex before marriage from anyone is to test out your partner to see if they're good in bed before you spend the rest of your life with him/her. I find that awfully silly, since it's not like 2 people who honestly love each other are going to go through a divorce just because the first time was a flop. Besides, then when you find out that s/he's good in bed before marriage, you'll probably only marry him/her for the sex, if that's your reasoning for having sex before marriage in the first place.
Also, just a comment on the whole thing with the safety from STD's if two people marry as virgins...keep in mind that if either spouse has an affair, they can contract an STD and transmit it to their partner...the real way to significantly reduce the risk of contracting an STD is to practice safe sex. Always. Even if you're married.
Well people shouldn't be having affairs in the first place. It's not like it's really hard to notice if something's wrong if you live with the person either. So no, the real way to significantly reduce the risk of getting an STD is to just stay with your one partner. It may not be the popular or common thing to do, but it's certainly not impossible.
The term "safe sex" is pretty much bullshit anyways. I mean yes, latex condoms do protect you, but not 100%. The condom could break, it could fall off, there could be a little hole in it that you didn't notice, etc. I agree with the term "protection," but not "safe sex." There's no such thing, especially not today. |
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| #32 Posted 4 months ago | Reply | I have yet to meet a couple who wasn't at least engaged before they had sex that lasted longer than a year after they had it.
That's kind of suprising to me. I had sex with my boyfriend when I was 15, we were both virgins, and two years later we're still together and happy. We waited almost a year to have sex, as well.
I guess it's obvious that I don't think that having sex before marriage is necessarily a bad thing, but you need to be educated before you go ahead and do it. Sex can be fun and all, but with that being said, the consquences can be life-changing.
And even though waiting until marriage was not for me, it doesn't mean that I disagree with it. I have great respect for those who wait until they're married -- kudos to you.
EditSex glues you to the other person and you end up regretting having sex with the person to begin with.
If this statement is true, then how do people have one-night stands and not regret what they did, even though they will never see the person again? Yes, I know some people regret their one-night stands (usually because they were under the influence), but I'm strictly talking about the people who like having one-night stands.
And I know I can't predict the future or anything, but I highly doubt that if my boyfriend and I break-up that I will regret having sex with him. I know why I had sex with him in the first place, and I haven't regretted what I did over the past two years, so I just don't see why I will ever end up thinking, "Why the heck did I ever have sex with him?!" |
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| #33 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #32 by Amber | Reply |
If this statement is true, then how do people have one-night stands and not regret what they did, even though they will never see the person again?
I think it's because sex to these people is taken so casually and lightly that they don't know that it's wrong to have one-night stands. Plus the more you do it, the harder it is to get attached, or the easier it is to not get attached, depending on who you're talking to.
And I know I can't predict the future or anything, but I highly doubt that if my boyfriend and I break-up that I will regret having sex with him. I know why I had sex with him in the first place, and I haven't regretted what I did over the past two years, so I just don't see why I will ever end up thinking, "Why the heck did I ever have sex with him?!"
3 years altogether and 2 years with sex is quite a feat for a high school couple; I think your situation is rare. If you guys have lasted this long you may or may not have regrets, I'm not sure. If you guys were able to make your relationship so that it wasn't just about the sex I think that would have a lot to do with why you're still together. Also waiting a year instead of, say, 2 months, might have to do with it as well.
Good for you that so far it's working out fine though. =)
I was just now reminded about the time when I was in 8th grade, the girls in my class had sex ed with a nun, and one time she told us that french kissing was oral sex. -_-;;
Question: Why should a virgin teach girls about sex? How does that make any sense? |
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| #34 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #31 by MrsSallyBakura | Reply | It's only necessary that we reproduce and raise our offspring properly,
Well, if you're suggesting that we have an obligation to have children (which you may or may not be saying from your post) then I'd most definitely disagree with you, but I'm not even going to venture into that one.
And if I'm not getting my point across, I think I'm picking up on what I haven't expressed. See, the way you speak you make it sound as though sex is some sort of carnal notary stamp on the emotional contract that is romantic love. I'm saying that while sex may be a very intimate thing between two people, it's also a physical thing, it's the product of a desire that lies not only in the heart, but in the libido as well.
We are humans, and as much as we pride ourselves on our intellectual and emotional sophistication, we're still biological organisms of the kingdom Animalia, and I've said before (and will say again) that the three things animals want and need are food, sleep and sex. Granted, unlike food a lack of sex won't kill you in a couple of weeks, but still, that doesn't change the fact that sex is a healthy, natural process, which can be done in a way that is healthy, for the mind and spirit as well as the body, yet does not require reserving sex for a hypothetical person, a person you've never met, yet with whom you want to spend the rest of your life.
And as far as the notion that sexual relationships that are not permanent could end unpleasantly, that may be true, but I don't think it's a valid reason to say that non-marital sexual relationships are absolutely a bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. Yes, sex goes hand in hand with a certain level of intimacy, and the end of an intimate relationship may not be pleasant, but I don't think that justifies not forming an intimate relationship unless you've preordained it to be permanent. And if you've bore first-hand witness to the disasters of pre-marital sex (or non marital sex, because "pre-marital" assumes that you're eventually going to marry), I'm not going to argue with you (how could I?), but I am going to say that you most certainly can't speak for everyone, ergo you can't speak for me.
And no, I'm not trying to present a reason that you shouldn't wait until marriage, because if I did, what kind of person would I be? A jerk, that's what. Then again, you probably already think I'm a jerk, I have a tendency to bring out that side of me in these sorts of discussions...
But no, all I'm saying is that there isn't a compelling reason that you should wait until marriage. In the end it's your own life and nobody else's, so what you do with it is your perogative. All I'm saying is that objectively speaking, waiting until marriage is not necessarily a good thing, and having non-marital sex is definitely not necessarily a bad thing. You can do what you will, but it's a choice I wouldn't make.
And a note on STD'S:
Even if there is no 100% "safe sex" (unless phone sex counts), there's still sex and markedly safer sex. And as I said, the risk of contracting an STD from your spouse has nothing to do with what you yourself do, but what your spouse does. If your spouse cheats on you without your knowledge (and if you're suggesting that a person would have to be a total idiot to not know if their spouse is cheating, then on that I also disagree), if you don't use protection then you can still contract a STD through no infidelity of your own. Also, keep in mind that it's still possible to contract an STD through means other than sexual intercourse (and no, exposure to contaminated blood is not the sort of thing that can only happen to junkies, and it doesn't give you a free pass), so it's still possible for your spouse to contract an STD, even without them cheating, and for them to unwittingly pass it to you if you don't use protection (and no, that's not a crazy, improbably, one-in-a-million occurence). So while it's true that there's no 100% way to prevent contracting an STD, there are practices that can significantly lower the likelihood of contracting one, and that includes using protection, even when you're married. |
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| #35 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #34 by Tatterdemalion | Reply | Another note on STD's:
Using "protection" is a counter-measure against pregnancy. However, STDs are often so small that they can still pass through a condom and infect the partner. In addition, many STDs are housed in areas that come into contact but aren't necessarily covered by a condom, so it's still possible to contract a good number of diseases even with protection. |
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| #36 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #35 by darkarcher | Reply | | Very true, although using a condom/physical barrier can still serve as a preventative measure against STDs, as opposed to other forms of contraception, which do nothing in that department. And yes, I agree, safe sex and taking precautions against transmitting/contracting an STD are by no means restricted to something as simple as using a condom. That is what you were getting at, right? |
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| #37 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #23 by MrsSallyBakura | Reply | Marriage just solidifies that love
No no no no no.
Just because your married doesn't mean anything. I knew a couple that stayed together for like 20 years, within that time they had sex, decided to have kids, raised their family in a beautiful house. And just last year they got married.
Besides, Divorce rate is higher then marriage rate [at least in the US as far as I know]. People make mistakes in marrying others too.
As long as your responsible and aware of risks- then it's fine.
*PS does anybody else feel it's weird talking to younger kids about this? Just saying. |
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| #38 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #33 by MrsSallyBakura | Reply | they don\\\'t know that it\\\'s wrong to have one-night stands.
It\\\'s not wrong to have one-night stands. It might be against your morals, but it\\\'s right for those who choose to have one-night stands. Other than that statement, you proved a good point -- but, what you had said originally was that sex is always going to make you attached to a person. Perhaps you meant when in a relationship, sex makes it harder for you to separate yourself from that person.If you guys were able to make your relationship so that it wasn\\\'t just about the sex I think that would have a lot to do with why you\\\'re still together.
Our relationship has never, and never will be, all about sex. Sex is just one aspect of our relationship -- a very small aspect. He is my bestfriend as well as my partner, and I love him for who he is and he loves me for who I am.Why should a virgin teach girls about sex? How does that make any sense?
It makes no sense at all! But, nuns are a little bit crazy sometimes and most of them educate students about sex as if it is something to fear. I don\\\'t know how putting lies into teenagers\\\' heads is supposed to keep them from having sex. It really is just ludicrous. |
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| #39 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #36 by Tatterdemalion | Reply | And yes, I agree, safe sex and taking precautions against transmitting/contracting an STD are by no means restricted to something as simple as using a condom. That is what you were getting at, right?
That's exactly what I was getting at. I just wanted to point out the common misconception that condom = safe sex. |
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| #40 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #39 by darkarcher | Reply | Though it may help with safety, no condoms aren't the only answer. Actually, the best thing to do is know your partner. Followed by a controceptive [sp?] like birth control pills etc. Then a condom to add to that. But as for STDs, basically knowing who you are with. I'm with somebody who I'm certain to have a future with [lol and was a virgin- that kinda helped to].
*insert "ask you GYN or male doctor" ad here* XD |
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| #41 Posted 4 months ago | Reply | poor nuns....and the pope too...
they will never know what sex is like... |
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| #43 Posted 4 months ago, in reply to post #34 by Tatterdemalion | Reply |
See, the way you speak you make it sound as though sex is some sort of carnal notary stamp on the emotional contract that is romantic love.
No, I don't see it that way. I guess I'm not getting my point across either. I don't know how since I've already said stuff like
And love doesn't just "happen" either, and I wouldn't call the bond between other people, "creating" or "summoning" love, but rather learning how to practice it. It's not like you meet a special person, convince yourself you love them, and then life goes on with flowers and butterflies and everything's perfect.
And yeesh love isn't an emotion, it's a willing action to hold responsibility and trust towards and with the other person. There isn't emotion in that.
There is romance which has emotion in it but it's not the only kind of love you should have with a significant other.
And as far as the notion that sexual relationships that are not permanent could end unpleasantly, that may be true, but I don't think it's a valid reason to say that non-marital sexual relationships are absolutely a bad thing, and should be avoided at all costs. Yes, sex goes hand in hand with a certain level of intimacy, and the end of an intimate relationship may not be pleasant, but I don't think that justifies not forming an intimate relationship unless you've preordained it to be permanent. And if you've bore first-hand witness to the disasters of pre-marital sex (or non marital sex, because "pre-marital" assumes that you're eventually going to marry), I'm not going to argue with you (how could I?), but I am going to say that you most certainly can't speak for everyone, ergo you can't speak for me.
All right, thank you, that was the answer to my question.
I'm more of a third-party witness in this kind of thing; I heard it wasn't a good idea to have sex when you're not married and then my best friend and her relationships with her ex solidified that. Not quite a first-person experience but still pretty close. No, not everyone is going to be exactly the same, but I say if the majority of couples let it happen this way, then it probably means it's safer to wait.
Just because your married doesn't mean anything. I knew a couple that stayed together for like 20 years, within that time they had sex, decided to have kids, raised their family in a beautiful house. And just last year they got married.
So there are exceptions. I'm sure it happens sometimes that way, but I haven't heard of anything quite like this personally. I never thought it impossible or anything, but from the way you're describing it, both parties mutually treated each other like they were married and that's what's important; it just seems like when you're not married both partners have different mindsets and expectations and reasons to have sex, whereas they were much more mutual about it. It also helps that they weren't just in it for the sex either.
Besides, Divorce rate is higher then marriage rate [at least in the US as far as I know]. People make mistakes in marrying others too.
I'm sure that was already covered somewhere on the last page, but from what I know a lot of those mistakes come from having sex in the first place. My English professor told us that a friend's mom told him, "If you don't actively go out and date other women, you're going to marry the first woman you sleep with." He didn't take her advice, married the first woman he slept with, and they divorced. I also mentioned something about marrying just for the sex. When you look at divorce rates, you have to look at who's getting divorced and who's staying together, not just the statistics.
Our relationship has never, and never will be, all about sex. Sex is just one aspect of our relationship -- a very small aspect. He is my bestfriend as well as my partner, and I love him for who he is and he loves me for who I am.
Well then good for you; it's a HUGE mistake on some people's parts to let sex dominate the relationship and that's why people break up, usually.
It makes no sense at all! But, nuns are a little bit crazy sometimes and most of them educate students about sex as if it is something to fear. I don\\\'t know how putting lies into teenagers\\\' heads is supposed to keep them from having sex. It really is just ludicrous.
Well she tried to explain that sex wasn't dirty but even though that's what she said, she still treated it like it was. I didn't understand that it's ok to have sexual desires until my freshman year of high school when a married guy who wrote a couple of books on the subject came to my school and gave a talk on it to all of us.
*PS does anybody else feel it's weird talking to younger kids about this? Just saying.
I'm 19 by the way. Sometimes I act older and sometimes I act younger. It's usually in these kinds of discussions where I feel "naive" and "inexperienced" or whatever. :/ |
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| #44 Posted 4 months ago | Reply | Ok I read the entire first page but got bored on the second so sorry if this is a little off-topic to what you're talking about right now..
For sex before marriage, I think its a pretty open subject. It depends on the person in question.
For example, if there's a person who thinks sex before marriage is a sin, and will absolutely not have sex before they are married, well that's there choice.
However, there are some people who say they are saving themselves for marriage, but then will have sex before they are married. This might happen because, say they found someone that they really feel that they love/trust completely/all that good stuff and just want to "solidify" the relationship. (as someone else in this thread described it)
Then, there are the people who have sex purely for pleasure.
The main reason people save themselves is either because they think its a sin or because they want it to be special. If you have sex with a lot of other people, then when you finally find someone that is special to you, then its kinda like "Oh, here's another person for my list."
...sorry if my post was confusing. I have trouble putting my thoughts into words XD |
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| #45 Posted 4 months ago | Reply | And love doesn't just "happen" either, and I wouldn't call the bond between other people, "creating" or "summoning" love, but rather learning how to practice it. It's not like you meet a special person, convince yourself you love them, and then life goes on with flowers and butterflies and everything's perfect.
And yeesh love isn't an emotion, it's a willing action to hold responsibility and trust towards and with the other person. There isn't emotion in that.
There is romance which has emotion in it but it's not the only kind of love you should have with a significant other.
See, there I'm, now going to have to disagree. I'd say that marriage involves two people making the decision to be responsible and trusting towards one another, but that no, love in general is not an action, or something you can do or practice. I agree it's a mistake to equate love with romance, but at the same time love is definitely not synonymous with two people sitting down and forging a lifelong partnership of shared support and responsibility. If two people do this they should love each other, yes, but the two are far from synonymous.
If love is not an emotion, then it is an attitude, but if it is anything it is not an action. I'm going to explore an example, moving out of the scope of romantic love, which could create some confusion, and move on to love in a different context. When you think about it, who do we love? We love our family, we love our friends...I know I do, and I would assume you do to, regardless of whether either of us has ever been married.
Now, I love my friends very much, and I would definitely say that I definitely feel a sort of trust and perhaps even responsibility towards them. Now, that being said, I know that I never in my life made the conscious decision to feel this way. It's not as though I ever sat down with my friends and said "okay, I know this is a big decision, but we've been casual acquaintences for a long time, and I think we should take the next step and become friends, although this is a big responsibility, and it means we're going to have to love each other" etc., etc. Having trust and the like towards my friends isn't something that I ever decided to do, and at the same time, it's not something that I could do consciously if I tried. That is to say, I couldn't stop loving my friends just by willing myself to, and at the same time I can't just decide to initiate the action of loving someone who I don't already love. (and to confirm, this sort of love we're talking about is the kind that doesn't lead to hanky panky or inappropriate touching...sorry, but I'd still feel kind of weird if I didn't say that one more time).
And what about love within a family? At what point in our lives to we take the willing action to be trusting and responsible toward our parents? Yes, in a household setting people have certain responsibilities, but at the same time, do you start loving your parents the day you first take the garbage out, or, better yet, the day that you decide that if asked you are responsible for taking the garbage out? Well, call me mister Un-Confucian, but I don't think that deciding to take on responsibility delegated to you by your parents is the same as loving your parents, I'd say it's something we do because we already love our parents.
I'd even say something bout love between siblings, but I can't...because I don't have any siblings.
Anyway, what I'm trying to say is that even though it may not be an emotion in and of itself, love is definitely a feeling that you have towards someone, and that any sort of trust or responsibility you feel towards that person are just the natural result of that feeling, not things that you yourself decide to do. At least, that's my experience. I can, or course, only speak for myself, and speaking for myself I have to disagree with you. |
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| #46 Posted 3 months ago | Reply | | What is sex? |
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| #47 Posted 3 months ago, in reply to post #46 by Rakatung | Reply | Sex is something you'll never have.Maturity Please. |
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| #48 Posted 3 months ago | Reply | Fufufufu. Why discuss, when you can basically lurk off them sites with them advice and stuff.
Heres an idear, you CAN get pregnant without actual intercourse. Seems like a ripoff, later on a person would be like "Ugh and we couldn't of done it too."Love is trust in someone, love is not a feeling of highs and butterflies that you have every single time you're with the person.
I concur this motion. |
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| #49 Posted 2 months ago | Reply | Im not gone argue but I believe in this. (The longer you are married, the longer you can last without sex.)  |
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| #50 Posted 2 months ago | Reply | Marriage more or less destroys all reason to have sex as a passionate move. When one is married, sex becomes nothing more than just a way to spew out the kids; it loses all of the romantic value that is had. That, and marriage is the surefire way to destroy a relationship. Just my two cents here.
Oh, and I may as well make reference to the stupidity of abstinence programs via Family Guy: "According to this, sex turns straight guys into gays and gays into Mexicans, everyone goes down a level!" Now while I haven't seen any abstinence program that says anything like that, there is still some borderline ridiculous stuff in those pamphlets. |
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| #51 Posted 3 weeks ago, in reply to post #50 by Kochiha | Reply | Necroing this thread, just to respond.
Marriage more or less destroys all reason to have sex as a passionate move. When one is married, sex becomes nothing more than just a way to spew out the kids; it loses all of the romantic value that is had. That, and marriage is the surefire way to destroy a relationship.
Are you, or have you ever been married?
If sex is so boring during marriage, then why have my parents been going at it for 25 years? They have 6 kids, yes, but they haven't had any in over 16 years. If during those 16 years they were able to have sex without "spew[ing] out the kids," then I'm pretty sure that they don't think it's boring. I've heard other married people say that it's bullshit that sex gets boring during marriage. There are married people who don't want kids. There are married people who have only had one kid, two kids, and don't plan on having any anytime soon. Please don't make these kinds of arguments; they're naive.
Oh, and I may as well make reference to the stupidity of abstinence programs via Family Guy: "According to this, sex turns straight guys into gays and gays into Mexicans, everyone goes down a level!" Now while I haven't seen any abstinence program that says anything like that, there is still some borderline ridiculous stuff in those pamphlets.
*sigh*
Family Guy is satire. I saw that episode and they completely over-exaggerated everything. Granted it was for humorous purposes and I'm not mad at them for doing that or anything, but to say that all abstinent education programs are that ridiculous is also naive. I have no doubt that some of them are, but some =/= all.
Take a look-see here: http://www.heritage.org/Research/Abstinence/wm461.cfm
Is it biased? I suppose it technically is, since it doesn't show the positives in safe-sex education. Nonetheless, it shows another perspective based on other sources that people may not have gathered before. |
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| #52 Posted 1 week ago | Reply | I will sum it up in one sentence. The pleasurable act of making babies in order to populate and make more babies!  |
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| #53 Posted 1 week ago | Reply | | I got heavily into sex recently. Though not always with someone else. |
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